Reflection and an interesting question: are American women broken?

Today I was reading Roy Walker’s account about his latest trip to NY City for day game–long story short, it didn’t go all that well, but what caught me was a similarity between what he experienced and what I found during my recent slump: namely, that a lot of the girls he number closed wouldn’t go out when he asked them on the date, and a lot of girls wouldn’t give him their number outright.

In his reflection on why the trip didn’t go all that well, he made a couple of interesting observations that have been on the back of my mind ever since I’ve started doing more day game:

  1. “American women are broken. I’m not saying that for dramatic effect, it is the honest impression I got from them. They’re feminist zombies, addicted to their Instagram likes, soy latte frappos and daytime brunching/drinking.”
  2. “American women have a very strong frame. Perhaps one of the route causes of why there are broken. I can smash the odd girls frame, but it gets exhausting for an introverted chap like myself.”

His third complaint, btw, was that there were too many American women in NYC.

So, to a certain extent we all have a bias in our own favor against the girls on our own turf–Tom Torero remarked in a recent podcast about how guys always think the girls from their hometown are the hardest to game and girls everywhere else are easier.

However, here Roy is saying the opposite–that he much prefers European women (and other non-American women) to American women, and that there’s something uniquely flawed about girls from the U.S.

I honestly don’t think he’s wrong.

If I could distill it down into one statement, it’s that American women are oddly disconnected from their inner feminine nature and are generally out of touch with their natural human desires. Maybe another way to put it is that a lot of American women are artificial to the point where they don’t really even believe in who they’ve chosen to be, but they’re so far along playing the role they can’t escape.

I think this is why books like Eat, Pray, Love and Wild and even 50 Shades of Gray resonate so strongly here–because these are examples of women who chose to say fuck it and embrace who they were and what they really wanted instead of doing what they’ve been told to do by their parents and “respectable” society from day 1.

But the fact remains very few women actually have the courage to do this. And in some ways I feel bad for American girls:

On one hand, they’re told to be strong feminists (which ironically means denying their feminine nature and acting like men), told by their mothers that it’s OK to wait to start a family and have children–or in some cases that not ever having children is perfectly fine–told to focus on their education and career first, told to be skeptical of men, told that men are optional, and encouraged, both implicitly and explicitly, to seek out weak beta males who will be supplicating, ask for consent before kissing her after the 5th fucking date, “treat you like a princess/queen”, and say stupid shit like “happy wife/happy life.”

Worse, they’re told that if they do the above, they’ll be praised for this, but we all know that’s not true. Men are not attracted to power–we’re attracted to beauty–and at the end of the day, there are going to be a lot of very powerful, wealthy women who over 35 who are childless, alone, and invisible. Invisible not only to men, but to women, because women don’t honestly give a shit about another woman who’s rich–they accord status to the success of other women’s children and/or the status/looks/power of her husband.

On the other hand, everything I just described above runs contrary to their natural instincts as women, which are to seek alpha males, be submissive, have children, be compassionate instead of stoic, have a family, and work in careers that don’t require extreme rigor–not because they can’t do it, but because they choose to put family and relationships first, and some may even simply prefer to have a man make the money in terms of a power dynamic.

Basically, American women are told to deny their nature and pursue a life that–for most, or at least many of them–runs contrary to everything that will actually lead them to something that looks like happiness.

Then, when you throw in smart phone addiction, social media, dating apps and all the rest of that shit, it’s an absolute mess, along with the fact that even though American women are told to be men and to not give a fuck about marriage, children, or family, there’s still the underlying expectation that they DO, along with being pretty, feminine, etc.

In a word, it’s incongruent.

As players and/or red pill guys, we know that congruency in one’s frame is key–in some ways, congruency is the same thing as frame. Are you who you say you are and who you present as? If not, women will see right through you, you will not pass shit tests, men will not respect you, and no one will listen when you speak.

And that’s where I think Roy was half right–or maybe he just didn’t go far enough.

I agree with him that American girls have very strong frame, but unlike the successful player, that frame is utterly inconsistent with who they truly are underneath.

It’s not a strong frame–it’s a false frame. It’s a frame that’s so inconsistent and so contrived they have to cling to it desperately in order for any sense of identity to survive.

But that desperation is what makes it strong. They can’t admit they want a strong man, a dominant man, a man who leads, because the story they believe is that they should be dominant, that they’re the alpha. And, because everyone has deferred to them their whole life–the dad who told her she was a princess, the mother who saw her as an extension of herself, the nice-guy chody boyfriends who told her everything she wanted to hear–they bought it; they don’t know any other way to be.

And coming back to game it’s kind of what I wrote about basic girls the other day: if she views being picked up or giving a guy she meets her number in a one-off, random situation as slutty or not fitting into the story she’s told herself about who she is, it’s not going to work.

The reason game works is that we’re tapping into the evolutionary biology of attraction and the dynamics necessary for a man and woman to have sex–it’s something that will always work because it’s imprinted into our DNA.

That said, as Roy smartly alludes to, if you’re going to smash a girl she has to admit, at least to herself, that she wants to be smashed, and if her frame is too strong to allow her to make that leap, it’s not going to happen. American girls certainly present an issue here because their false frame is so strong.

OK… So What?

So, one of the main problems I see with the red pill community is that there’s a lot of whining and bullshit and passive misogyny (women behave like shit–and yes they do, but so do most human beings–AWALT, etc.) without any sort of actionable information or answer.

Many American women have a false frame that’s extremely strong, and that frame has to be broken before they can be gamed, so what’s a player to do?

I don’t have any certain answers, because it’s not something I’ve tackled directly…yet. However:

  1. I’d say that the first thing to do is not panic. There has never been a better time to be a player as RedQuest has said recently. Yes, modern feminism is fucking stupid and women are pretty fucked up these days, but they still want to fuck alpha males, game works, and if you combine that with lifting and everything else TRP espouses, you’ll still get laid plenty.
  2. Long game may be a better route with American girls. I’ve thought about this a lot recently in terms of slow playing them more…develop a more casual relationship over time that allows her to see that the dynamic you have with her is different, but that it’s OK for that to be the case. The shorter the time frame, the more difficult her false frame is to destroy.
  3. View this as a labor of love. I’ve had this idea for a long time, but in a way, players are feminists–we give women what they truly want, and if we’re at the top of our game, we make them feel exactly how they want a man to make them feel: sexy, beautiful, desired, carnal. American women need men with game. We simply need to find better ways to allow them to access that part of themselves.
  4. At the same time, we can passively punish this behavior by focusing our game on girls who aren’t like this–I have no desire to be with a basic bitch. The sex isn’t usually good. The conversation isn’t usually good. The relationship isn’t usually good. I’d much rather be with a girl who’s fucking weird or goth or punk or super feminine or even a princess than a basic bitch.

So, yeah. I think that’s all I got on this. Not satisfied with the next steps or answers, but the first part of tackling a problem is understanding it, and I thank Roy for putting this idea into my brain.

BTW–got a residual lay last night. A girl I’d had sex with actually more than six months ago texted me randomly, wanted me to come over, so I did, fucked her after a 20 minutes of chat and a joint, then went home and went to bed. Not a new notch, but damn it’s easier to sleep after getting laid.

9 thoughts

  1. On the brokenness of our women;

    I have been thinking about this a lot over the last few days. Posts and comments at xsplat’s blog where he is critical of Rollo and Heartiste for being far too black pilled and bitter in tone and outlook. In my opinion justifiably critical in the whole; but there is a necessity of honestly appraising reality, and in breaking through our dreamlike cluelessness.

    In theory, whenever there is a large market imbalance, a mass delusion, an inversion… there should be a massive opportunity to profit open to contrarian minds. If so, then in this age of soy bois and women pushed past the edge of where they can barely perform let alone be comfortable there SHOULD be a massive opening for traditional masculinity. In theory….[1]

    I was thinking this morning about dogs. You hardly ever hear about some dog that is so bad a dog that it’s owner has to take it out and shoot it, or have it put down. I mean, it does happen. But we tend to think of pretty much all dog behavioral problems as being the fault of the owner and/or environment. Of bad training. And experience seems to bear this out. I have a friend who has a little Cockapoo that she frets constantly over. She guards against the dog escaping the house or car and always keeps it on a leash. Because the dog won’t come when she calls it; it runs away and makes her chase it. Great fun – for the dog. I once got stuck caring for the dog for a day or so. Great dog. In a short time I had it trained to come when I call, and it went along with me to work and on errands. Everyone we met complemented me on the dog’s good behavior and temperament. Now I dog sit anytime she wants to leave him with me. I pretty much never use the lead, only in a large crowd of people and food and dogs that are distracting or if there is a lot of vehicular traffic about. So the problem is not with the dog. When my grandfather was very elderly he had a lady friend who he wound up taking into his home. (Complicated circumstance.) She walked past a pet store and brought home a dog. They were really too old and infirm to properly care for the dog. It sometimes it wasn’t let out of the house when it needed to be. It was nervous and barked constantly and nipped at or bit visitors. After the lady friend’s health deteriorated to the point she went to a nursing home the dog got adopted by a nice little old lady in town. I visited it two or three days afterward. Completely different dog. Quiet, well mannered, well behaved. Took less than three days.

    A good portion of the manosphere is devoted to revealing the degraded and broken nature of women, particularly American women. What if it is us who are broken?

    – – – – – –

    Patrice O’neal always went on about how different foreign girls were, with a particular fondness for Brazilian hookers. He fought constantly to train his girl to ‘act right.’ But it was always a constant battle.

    Long game may be a better route with American girls. I’ve thought about this a lot recently in terms of slow playing them more…develop a more casual relationship over time that allows her to see that the dynamic you have with her is different, but that it’s OK for that to be the case. The shorter the time frame, the more difficult her false frame is to destroy. //

    In my experience the length of time is a double edged sword. It does help because the girl will come to appreciate that you are different, and value you for it. And good habits can be established with time and patience. As an example, I once dated a single mother who owned a house. I would often fix or improve things for her, but of course her appetite for home renovations was insatiable, and she knew it. At some point she told me a story of how she had been complaining casually to a group of her friends about something she was hoping to get painted or fixed or replaced. ‘Why don’t you just get A. to do it for you?’ they asked. ‘Well, he does a lot for me, but he’s real busy, I’m not sure when he’ll get to it…’ So of course one of them suggests ‘Just withhold sex until he does it. Problem solved.” She was laughing now, telling me the story. ‘I had no way of explaining it to them. That it just would work. They wouldn’t be able to understand, that you’re just…. Different.’ ‘You’d probably hold out longer than I would anyway.’

    My interactions with women tend to get much better with time-in-relationship. That being said, long game requires a whole different level of frame. I think that for me the difficulty comes with maintaining options. Daygame require so much time, determination and grit that I tend to stop doing it if I have a relationship or three that hold(s) promise. Once the options dry up the frame starts to gradually slip away.

    I have a number of ideas about things to do within a relationship outside of sex that will reinforce proper frame and relations with the rest of society. At this point most of them are speculative and not even at the experimental stage. Basically it amounts to rituals, a liturgy really, that reinforces the underlying framework and hierarchy of the relationship. I the past, I have used social dance as a way to regularly have a lot of interactions with women, often with my date watching. Most, almost all of it is theatre though. I think that one thing that I need to do better is to reserve attention and time to flirt with other women. Because of the world I have chosen to work in, my options tend to dwindle and disappear if I don’t actively spend time pursuing. Just to remember how wide and abundant the world is. I have resolved to have more discipline in this regard in the future. Time will tell.

    [1] On the difference between theory and reality: Little Johnny comes home after school and activities one evening. Dad asks him how his day at school went. Johnny reports “The teacher was explaining the difference between theory and reality. I didn’t really get it.” “Maybe you could explain it to me?”
    “Hmm.” Says Dad. “Maybe an example would help.”
    “Go and ask your mom if she would sleep with a complete stranger for one million dollars.”
    Johnny runs into the kitchen and asks “Hey Mom, Dad wants to know if you’d sleep with a stranger for a million dollars.”
    Mom blinks a few times, answers “You tell your Dad the I absolutely would.”
    Johnny returns to the living room and reports; “Mom says yes. Absolutely.”
    Dad: “Good. Go and ask your older sister the same question.”
    Johnny runs upstairs and asks his sister “Hey Sis, would you have sex with a complete stranger for a Million bucks?”
    Sis: “Yeah sure, if he was hot.”
    Johnny comes back and reports: “Sis says she would too.”
    Dad says “So its like this: In theory we could be sitting on a couple o’ million bucks. In reality we’re living with a couple of sluts.”

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  2. That’s pretty damn funny.
    I agree that if we as men change the dynamic, then yes–in theory–women should be trainable like the little dog.
    But until we have that chance, the problem can’t be laid anywhere but at the feet of how we educate and raise women in our society. One of the paradoxical problems American women create for themselves (or that they’re led to believe by reading feminist bullshit) is that they want to hold the frame, but at the same time their feminine nature is annoyed by a man who’s not in control.
    It’s funny you bring up theory vs. reality, because in a sense that’s the problem with American women–they’re trying to live their lives according to theory (men should acquiesce, be kind/loyal, be sensitive and share his feelings, etc.) that doesn’t reflect what they actually want in reality.
    One strategy we’ve both raised is the notion of long game, and I think that is certainly a route worth exploring. My question is what adjustments can we make in day game and pick up that lead to better success? It seems to me that it’s one of two things that are opposites–either the player needs to be A) more polarizing–basically offering more value, or B) more grounded–aka there’s a plausible reason for the pick-up, and more comfort.
    I used to think it was A, but I’m leaning now to B. I guess one way to think about it is that if you’re trying to smash her frame quickly, we need to show more value, but if you’re trying to slow play it, then we need to offer more comfort.
    A bridge here might be to use SnapChat as the means of communicating vs. a typical number close. Then you can ping photos that display value (attractive, funny, doing cool shit) while at the same time building comfort by the mere fact you’re communicating.
    Taking a step back, however, it’s possible this is over-analyzing the problem. Yes, some percent of girls aren’t going to give you their number, and yes, some of those who do will ghost/flake, but that’s something every day gamer deals with, even the best guys like Torero and Nash. And to be honest, I simply haven’t done enough sets to truly know if, as Roy is suggesting, day game is just ineffective in America to the point where it’s not worth it, or if it’s simply that he ran into a string of no-girls like I did recently.
    My goal is to do at least 300-400 sets this summer, and by that time I should have a better idea of how to approach. And to be honest, if at the end of that time, I’m having huge numbers of girls flake/ghost or not give me their number at all, then it might be time to move on and employ some other strategy…
    I’d guess that’s not going to be the case. Yes, American girls are fucked up, but they’re still women, which means that if you present as a dominant, alpha male, some number of them will want to fuck you.

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  3. //.. if, as Roy is suggesting, day game is just ineffective in America to the point where it’s not worth it,…//
    Compared to what?

    //Yes, American girls are fucked up, but they’re still women//
    Biology is certainly on our side. And to a growing extent as people get lost in phone-instabook-world.

    //My question is what adjustments can we make in day game … that lead to better success? ….–either the player needs to be A) more polarizing–basically offering more value, or B) more grounded–aka there’s a plausible reason for the pick-up, and more comfort.//

    Here is a dichotomy. The answer is yes. Both. What Tom T. calls fractionation. Polarity comes from refusing to pander or do things to please her, comfort comes from genuine masculine presence and self assurance.

    I think that the most important thing is to get the Matthew principle working for you. To whom much has been given…

    Once you are walking around like a guy who already has it, who is just flirting to have fun and enjoy a woman he crosses paths with… Then the dynamic shifts. I have numbers in my phone of guys who are multi millionaires, whom I would not call unless I had some very good reason or purpose. I would never waste their time if I could avoid it. And I would certainly answer if they called me, and would travel to meet with them over some business matter no matter how silly it sounded. Ideally a girl should have a level of nervousness around getting your number and hoping that you follow through. It’s hard to convey this if you are putting in the legwork of number farming. But at some point you just won’t really need another dumb model’s phone number. Then things will start to shift. In sales its called momentum. There have been a few times where this has happened for me. Then it slips away and its murder trying to get it back again.

    Yes, having an instagram account that shows you as all manner of cool helps, you can have all the hip messaging apps and send funny pictures. It is important to be able to convey emotion, to be able to provoke an emotional response at a distance. But all the important stuff happens when she sees you in person. Either she wants you or, meh… No amount of snap-chat Fu can transform meh into ‘God I hope he calls me!’

    Flaking is tough to deal with for a couple of reasons. For me, it took a while for me to understand the dynamic. When I was young you dialed a rotary phone and the person at the other end had to pick up to find out who was calling. So girls did not readily give out numbers. If a girl gave you her number she wanted to talk to you. Today a girl will give a guy a number because its the quickest way to get him to go away. Also, when I was young I lived in a smaller world. If a girl agreed to a date with a normal guy and just didn’t show up for it with no excuse, people would talk and she would wind up shunned. No date next Friday. Today the guy gets blamed for everything.

    I think that you have to look at it as less you are doing something wrong and more as Good: she has sorted herself out of the funnel, and she won’t be wasting any more of my time.

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