Genuinely curious: is it worth going for women 27+?

And if so, what’s the best game plan?

So, I was looking back at my numbers and I started to notice a pattern: women 27+ were both more difficult to game, and even when I did get a number, flaked or didn’t respond more than younger women.

OK, first the stats, in order of importance–not including long leads, or residual lays. Keep in mind I didn’t post all my stats on the blog, nor did I keep perfect numbers on everything, so it’s not 100% accurate, but it’s pretty close. This is since April 3rd:

  • Opens: 88
  • Lays: 4
  • Girls: 6
  • Dates: 7
  • Vibe: 45
  • Numbers: 22
  • I gave her the number: 1
  • Insta: 10
  • Snap: 2
  • Didn’t text back and/or flaked: 15
  • Blowouts: 16
  • Didn’t try to close: 8
  • BF/taken: 13
  • Lesbian: 1
  • i-dates: 2
  • Pulls from i-dates: 1

First off I’m going to say, I look at those numbers and feel pretty damn good. My approach to lay ratio is 22 to 1–and it might even be a bit higher as I just had a second date with the model (no, I fucked it up sort of–a bit of a princess…) who I think I’ll eventually fuck.

Close percentage, if I count Insta and Snap is 38%, which is crazy high, but those numbers really don’t count–Insta especially. Seriously guys, I’ve gotten laid from a Snap close, but never, ever have I done so with an Instagram–at this point I think it’s better just to say, no, if you really want to go out, give me your number, or at the very least your Snap.

But anyway, closing 25% of sets with a number is very solid game. The stat I was most interested in was the number conversion percentage: of the numbers I took, how many could I get out? Cause my chances of getting a lay if I get her out are pretty good.

It was 27%. That seems bad, but I know given what I’ve seen from other guys it’s not terrible. I think Torero says half of the numbers flake, so in that case I’m way off, but when I’ve looked at other guys’ field reports, it does seem a fair amount of women just flake.

Still, that’s the number I’d like to improve most. Day game and cold approach are fun, but they require time and energy, so the more efficient one can be the better, and that’s the thing: she liked you enough to give the number–how do you improve the odds of getting her out?

The first thing is better game. I need to work in more grounding, my sets need to be longer, and I need to be more polarizing with my masculinity while at the same time delivering enough comfort to make her feel like I’m a legit dude.

And there’s only one solution to that: more approaches. I’ve been super busy with work stuff and I’ve got my son 50/50, so that definitely limits my time, but there have been too many days when I could have done day game sessions and I haven’t. Plus, in terms of overall approaches, I’m a baby. Torero and Nash talk about thousands–even if I count all my previous approaches from one-offs and bar game since learning cold approach and doing this exclusively, there’s no way I’m at more than 120-125.

So my first step is simply to do more approaches.

The next step is to slow down my texting game. I’ve been pinging, and if I get a response, going for the date right away–I think a back and forth that displays a little more value will lead to better results. Not more than 3-4 messages/GIFs, but more than what I’ve been doing.

I’ve also been thinking about who I approach. At first I had a hard time finding enough women to approach, specifically during day game, but with bar game/night game and U-game (on the fly one-offs), you usually have several options. And if I can learn to spot the chicks who are better leads, there’s no reason not to use that information.

I’ve talked about basic chicks before, but what I noticed looking back were that most of the girls who didn’t text back or flaked were 27+. Ironically, the hotter younger girls are both more susceptible to cold approach AND more likely to come out. The ages of my lays: 23, 24, 26, and 31–but she was a yes girl looking to get fucked–took on an i-date and then pulled. The model I’m still dating is 20.

RedQuest has a pretty reasonable explanation for this, which is that younger chicks aren’t filtering players out, older chicks are–so sure, maybe they’ll give me the number, but then she doesn’t reply because she knows I’m only looking for one thing.

I want to point out here that it’s not that these women aren’t attracted to players–they are. But unlike younger women, they don’t feel they have the ability (read: SMV) to keep a player or lock him down–and older women have been hurt and burned before so they’re wary this will happen again. We need to remember that women have extremely fragile egos AND when they fall for a guy–especially a player type that makes them wet and fucks them well–they fall fucking hard and when they find out he’s seeing other chicks or can’t lock him down it’s devastating for the chick. Like, some girls stop dating guys for 6 months to a year following a bad break up.

Anyway, if you’re out running game, definitely go for the hotter/younger girls. I know I passed on a lot of them up because I was intimidated early on, but they’re the most susceptible to cold approach pick-up. Kind of funny actually that in game, the thing you want most–hotter, younger girls–is precisely the thing you’re most likely to get.

OK, but there are some very attractive women who are 27+… is there an adjustment that can be made?

Yes–but it’s a bit duplicitous.

As a devout red-pill man, however, I believe that sexual strategy is amoral, so why not go down that road?

To be clear, this is theory, but with 27+ women, I think you basically do the cold approach the same way you’d open any girl, but you throw in a lot more comfort, grounding, and boyfriendy signals. You focus on the narrative–the story of the meeting–and honestly, the more Rom-Commy you can make it, the better.

Then you slow play the text game: a lot of stuff you’d normally do on the first date–I even wonder about doing the cube over text?

Anyway, I also think that if you did this right, you’d actually have a fairly good shot at a first date lay because she’d trust you a lot more as well.

As with everything in game–it’s a balance between value and comfort. Older women need more comfort: they’ve been pumped and dumped and they’re not interested in a guy who only wants that.

So you just present as the nice guy and then bang her.

From there you have two options:

  1. Pretend it’s monogamous and go into boyfriend mode, but continue to see other women on the side.
  2. Tell her after sleeping together that you’re ethically non-monogamous.

Oops!

That’s the third adjustment I’ll make–going for hotter/younger instead of older chicks is still the number one goal, because that group is most likely to respond well and give you the date and the lay. And I want to point out, unless you’re struggling to get enough approaches, you should be selective about who you approach, because every approach takes energy and on the off chance it seems like an opportunity for an SDL and you take her on an i-date, your session that day is done as happened to me recently.

But yes, when approaching older women I think you need to err on the side of comfort, and your value should be grounded in solid relationship type stuff, not wild, rockstar, player stuff.

Oh, and I want to weigh in on the whole two dates vs. one date thing–so far it’s been better to try for the lay on the first date. All four of my lays from cold approach during this time were on first dates. Oh and BTW, another girl from a long lead is now on a third date after not kissing on the first. So with both her and the model, I’m still unsure if I’ll get the lay–probably will, but as they say, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

So yeah, going on a date where sex can’t happen is dumb.

Get the lay as quickly as humanly possible, because as Todd V has said most elegantly, “sex is one of the few things that builds comfort AND value at the same time.”

And I guess I’d rather push it on the first date and scare away girls who didn’t want sex–even with the theoretical older chick game of providing more comfort. Yes, even in that case: go for the lay. Chicks who are scared to escalate don’t buy into your value and/or narrative, and if that’s the case, you’re probably dead unless you can be last dick standing, which doesn’t really apply in this case.

Another Todd V saying, btw.

Obviously, there are some cases where the date is not conducive to getting the lay–like a coffee or lunch date–but my advice would be to avoid those types of dates if possible. Make the date is such that sex can happen, which means it’s either close to your place or close to hers, and go for the pull: “hey you should come over and check out that movie/music/thing we’ve been talking about.”

So to sum up the lessons I want to apply in my second session of game, which will start this week:

  1. Nothing substitutes for getting out there and approaching–it’s a numbers game, and at the same time, the more you approach the better you get. If I had twice the number of approaches, I’d have twice as many lays if not more–it really is that simple. I had 88 approaches from 4.3–5.22. From 6.10–8.31, I want to get at least 200, if not 300.
  2. Game dictates flakes–I’m getting a lot of flakes and non-responses, which means my game is lacking. Better game would lead to a lower flake rate, along with better texting (3-4 pings before asking on a date).
  3. Go for hotter, younger women. They WANT to get picked up. They WANT the fast, player sex. And those are the girls we want anyway.
  4. If you do approach a women who’s older (27+), throw a lot more comfort and narrative into the set so that she sees you not as a player, but as that magical guy she runs into from the Rom-Com.
  5. Go for the lay on the first date–not to the point where you ruin your chances if she’s for sure not into it, but it’s better to seal the deal as early as possible.

6 thoughts

  1. The communications platform generally does not make a huge difference so long as it is a chat program – telephone number, Whatapps, Messenger, Snapchat.

    To me, however, Instagram is a value-display app. While it has chat functionality, its primary purpose, in my opinion, is to display value upfront to the girl and overly benefits her strategy rather than yours. It is difficult to be the Strong, Silent Type if you have already given away your value by displaying it all.

    Why not create the mystery and just tell her that you’d prefer a chat app?

    RP Musicology and I have talked about Instagram game – have public accounts displaying your best work (music, art, photography) and then a private app which maintains the mystery. You remain the gatekeeper as you need to approve her request (which is a display of curiosity on her part).

    Like

  2. From my experience: your are spot on in noticing a difference, but the difference is mostly academic. I don’t really see much significance in practice. Unless you are lucky enough to be triaging. Then deal with the younger ones first.

    In practice you want to calibrate your game to the girl and not to her age. You recognize and game a 32 year old yes girl the same as you do a 19 y.o. yes girl.

    >”If you do approach a women who’s older (27+), throw a lot more comfort and narrative into the set so that she sees you not as a player, but as that magical guy she runs into from the Rom-Com.”

    For me, I do the opposite. I’ve wasted too much time. Again I think you have to calibrate player vibe to the girl and how its received, less to the age. But for the 27+ gals I tend to structure any interactions to suit my own needs and refuse to do anything that doesn’t absolutely serve my own ends. For instance, I will meet at a busy after work watering hole instead of a cozy private pub, and be ready to use her for social proof and flirt with the bartender or other patrons if she won’t stop with the interview questions. Or I pick a place near some music event I might attend solo. If she’s cool she comes if not I don’t waste much time with her. Text game is only done in moments I am really bored and stuck waiting somewhere.

    For me I just have been through so many more pro time wasters in the 27+ crowd that I can’t help but come across as a player. And I don’t think that hurts your chances at all. Weigh every interaction against the opportunity cost and either enjoy it or skip it.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. On the instagram..

    I consider it a slightly more hip sophisticated analog to adding on Facebook, maybe I’m wrong. I figure that if you have a carefully curated presence that mystifies her, leaves her wondering who is this guy? Then it would have some value. If it’s boring then I think it’s likely better to avoid and give as little info as possible until she sees you in person.

    On the other hand, I have had indications that women were reassured when they glanced at my very ordinary, mostly ignored-by-me Facebook page because it reassured them that I was a normal guy with normal friends and family and not some predatory weirdo type who approaches girls on the street and kidnaps them.

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  4. “To be clear, this is theory, but with 27+ women, I think you basically do the cold approach the same way you’d open any girl, but you throw in a lot more comfort, grounding, and boyfriendy signals. You focus on the narrative–the story of the meeting–and honestly, the more Rom-Commy you can make it, the better. ”

    I disagree a bit. Maybe the grounding is more “sophisticated”, but last weekend I approached a 33yo, really like the banter, really liked non-boyfriendy vibes, and really liked my style (refined, yet rebelliously sexual). Even at 33, many women haven’t been fucked properly, and need someone to show them.

    I find that older women can be more fun since they’ll better understand and dish out the flirting conversation, can still be hot (hot enough for YHT at the clubs to blatantly stare at me), they have more time to understand how to be great lays, and are be overall wonderful girls.

    Sure, there’s a lot of bitter older women out there, and conservative hags who just want a ring. But I don’t want women like this, I want the fun conversationalists that are a joy to be around and brighten my day.

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