Game and TRP orthodoxy; plus, long term viability.

So, this began as a comment to a comment, but then I realized the discussion warrants a full post.

For context, here’s the comment:

> “My bigger concern at this point is at what age cold approach becomes unfeasible in the US.”

> I think cold-approach is still doable for me (late 30’s) but by far the biggest issue is arranging time to do it (and then finding enough women when I do have time for it). If anything, it’s logistics and unreasonably high standards that make it infeasible versus cultural BS.

The context in which day game developed is probably not your context: don’t get trapped.

OK, so one thing this community needs to realize is that you don’t always have to do day game in the mode of the London guys or coaches–just because Tom Torero and those other guys said go out for two hours, do 10 sets, yada, yada, doesn’t mean that’s the only way to do day game.

To be honest (I’d have to go back and count to give exact stats), the vast majority of my lays and dates come from one-off approaches: a chick in a coffee shop here, grocery store there, pub, farmers market, concert, etc. Guys who are serious about this modality of game (more to come on this) should be making day-game, cold approach an everyday part of their life, because carving out 3-4, 2 hour sessions every week AND getting the volume you need in those sessions isn’t feasible for a lot of guys, especially if you’ve got kids and/or a demanding job and/or live in the suburbs or a smaller city.

Good looking loser has a cool idea if you need a metric: talk to 2 chicks a day, get their number and ask them out. That’s 14 sets a week, but likely in better context than pure street game. Assuming you get 3-4 numbers (or more) from those 14 sets, I imagine 1 or 2 come out per week. Seems to me if you did this on a consistent basis you’d have plenty of dates and assuming you’re not a total social retard, you should get 1-2 new lays per month. That’s pretty fucking good.

Anyway, we need to remember that this community was built in a highly specialized situation: guys approaching in London where there are a lot of foreign girls, and Western/British guys going to Central and Eastern Europe.

This partially explains the obsession with going direct in day game: because in Eastern Europe, she either doesn’t speak good English or doesn’t speak much English at all, so it was necessary to make sure she knew what you were after immediately.

But given a different context, going direct immediately is unnecessary and often uncalibrated. For example, as an American guy approaching American chicks, the fact I’m talking to her in the first place is an indication I think she’s cute–I’ve had multiple girls tell me this: they assume that if a random guy starts talking to them, he’s interested.

Additionally, if you’re doing the other things right: voice low and slow, strong, sexual eye contact, relaxed DGAF posture–you’re signaling to her that this is a sexual, man to woman set.

Understand, I’m not saying it’s wrong to go direct. I often go direct myself. What I am suggesting, however, is that guys don’t become automatons who blindly repeat tactics that don’t apply to context in which they’re meeting girls.

Cue the cliche Einstein quote: “Doing the same thing over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.” I’ll add one qualification to that: unless you’re learning. That’s a good thing to remember, especially for guys new to game: your measure of success shouldn’t be numbers or lays, but whether or not you’re getting better.

Process > Results. If the process is good progressing to great, the results will come.

The right way is whatever works: as in life, there are no silver bullets. Do the work.

This isn’t a small problem. My guess is a lot of guys who get into this either struggle along with very bad approach to lay ratios or try for awhile and then quit because they don’t have any success. As RedQuest has often pointed out, a lot of guys who find themselves reading TRP stuff and learning cold approach do so because they’re either VERY UNSUCCESSFUL with women and/or have had a relationship blow-up on them because of blue-pill conditioning.

I’m not judging those guys–indeed, one reason I write this blog is to help them–but I also want to be really clear that if you aren’t comfortable talking to people, spend a ton of time on social media or reddit (get off your phone guys–you’re stunting your ability to socialize with people–and last I checked you still can’t fuck a girl on your phone), and are nervous as fuck when talking to girls, it’s going to be a long slog.

These are patterns of behavior and habits that take years, not months, to correct.

I’ll go ahead and address the elephant in the room: this is why I got good fast. Because almost all the jobs I’ve had involve a lot of social interaction, I read a ton, I’m extremely comfortable talking to women, and I’ve always been a fairly confident, assertive guy, even when I was a little blue pill faggot. Additionally, my n-count was 17-18 before I took TRP, and this isn’t my first time around doing cold approach pick-up either–I ended up married because I gamed a hot girl and then married her, but that was after a solid year doing cold approach and reading The Game.

In other words, I wasn’t starting from scratch. Seems like a good time to remind guys to read Redquest’s post on the Tip of the Spear.

But this is why I get so frustrated with a lot of the advice I see on Reddit and Twitter and in the community in general:

  1. A lot of it’s vague–shit like, “you are the prize” and “maintain a strong frame” which is great if you actually are the prize and you know what frame is, but if you don’t it’s pretty much worthless.
  2. There’s a lot of almost religious-like orthodoxy that stunts the development of guys new to game or struggling to develop their strategy.

I’ll give you an example: the standard rule is that players don’t let chicks sleep over. Well guess what? Many, if not most of the girls I’ve had sex with in the last two years spent the night, and you know why? Because given the context of the situation, it would have been weird for me to ask them to leave or kick them out.

But RPD, you’re breaking the player’s code!

Yeah, and I don’t really give a fuck. Besides I like cuddling.

To be serious though, the problem with a lot of stuff in TRP and the pick-up community is that experienced guys say what works for them as if it’s fucking gospel and inexperienced guys who don’t know any better try to follow a bunch of rules or spit a reel of canned lines instead of just being a better, sexier version of themselves, which is ultimately what game is all about.

Look at it this way: I can teach you poker one of two ways. One way would be to list a bunch of rules guys should memorize in terms of which hands to fold, how much to bet on certain hands, etc., and tell him to read books in his mom’s basement instead of going to a casino. Another way would be to teach the player that goal is to have the best hand at the end, bluff other players out, and/or fold bad hands, then take him to a tournament and let him play.

Which guy’s going to become the better player? Number two, right, because even if he doesn’t know exactly what to do in every situation, he at least has an idea why he’s doing it, which gives him the chance to figure shit out and make the right move. The other guy may make a lot good moves, but he has no idea why he’s doing what he’s doing–he’s just following rules–and chances are he’s going to get his ass kicked.

In the end, nothing replaces actually getting out in field: talking to girls, getting numbers, going on dates, escalating. You will learn far more if you put in the work than you can ever learn trolling TRP sub on Reddit or reading pick-up advice on Twitter.

The goal of this game is to get laid, and beyond, to have better relationships with women, depending on what you’re looking for. So please, for the love of God guys, if your approach to lay ratio is above 200:1, you need to do something different–that is a fuckload of time and energy to spend for a minuscule return on investment.

A quick point here: SMV matters. I don’t care if guys want to shit on me for saying that, because it’s true. If you’re 5’5″, look like Quasimodo, and are hitting on 5’10” 9’s and 10’s, you’re not going to have much success, if any at all.

The good news is that being at least a 6/7 as a guy post 25 isn’t hard:

  • Lift and avoid sugar.
  • Develop a style/archetype that’s appealing to women (I need to do a post on this–it’s coming).
  • Take care of grooming: trimmed beard or clean shaven, nose/ear hair, nails are cut, eyebrows plucked, etc.

A good rule of thumb is that cold approach elevates your SMV 1-2 points, which means that if you can get to being a 6/7, you can game 8’s and 9’s. A final point here: there’s absolutely nothing wrong with 7’s. That’s mostly the level of chick I get, because 8’s are rare and often either have a BF or a HQ guys who’s in the mix. Of course, go talk to the hottest chicks you see–but don’t be a snob, either.

How sustainable is game, especially with regard to older guys and younger girls?

> “If anything, it’s logistics and unreasonably high standards that make it infeasible versus cultural BS.”

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’ll go ahead and name the main fears of every guy who’s 30+ doing this: hot, young chicks think old guys are weird and online dating/social media give women unrealistically high standards and too many options. Any guy who’s been out doing sets knows these fears are in the back of his mind–and to be fair, there’s some truth to them.

However: women, regardless of age, find older men attractive–IF they’re attractive. Biological fact. Luckily, being an attractive older man isn’t hard assuming you stay in shape, take care of grooming, and dress well (see above). That said, YES, a certain portion of younger women (30-40%)–especially in that 18-22 range–won’t be down simply due to their perception that it’s weird or icky to be with an older man. On the flip side, some portion will be very into older men (20-30%), and the other 30% or so will be open to it if the guy’s game is good.

But remember this as well: in my experience, once most girls hit 24-25, she doesn’t really give a shit how old a guy is unless he looks like a grandpa or is a fat out of shape turd. If he’s attractive, successful, and has game, girls in their mid to late 20’s are in play for guys into their 50’s.

I also think there’s going to be a shift in what women are looking for once hypergamy is fully realized in the marketplace, which will happen in the next 5-10 years. Just as we in the pick-up community target younger women, because in almost every aspect they’re superior to older women, my guess is that women start to realize and embrace the fact that older men are far more likely to give them what they want than younger men. In other words, the stigma that exists about younger women dating older men will mostly go away once our society and women in particular realize that pairing up by age doesn’t apply in modern times.

Additionally, women are starting to realize that dating apps and social media aren’t actually all that great for meeting HQ men. Indeed, it’s a crapshoot for them–what they gain in abundance online that men lack, they lose in any idea about whether they have chemistry with him, whether he has game, knows how to escalate, etc. To be clear: as guys, we pretty much know how attracted we’re going to be to a girl we match with online because male attraction is based primarily on physical appearance. But that’s not how chicks work–so while they might be physically attracted to a guy, what happens when they meet up is up in the air.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that the future is bright. Chicks are naturally turned on by cold approach, and it’s only going to become more rare as we go forward into the digital future. On top of that, now that they don’t need to rely on men for income, most women for some significant portion of their lives–especially when they’re hotter and younger–aren’t looking for a provider good guy to marry. They’re looking for great sex, which means seeking the dominant, player type guys–in particular, older guys, because we tend to be better at sex.

Of course, many girls will say no and some portion of chicks are just not available to players (Redquest and I argue about how large this percentage is, but it’s certainly significant and no doubt exists–I say smaller, he says larger–probably doesn’t matter). But if you run good game, self correct/calibrate, and approach enough, there are plenty of women to be had. Beauty isn’t rare.

I say this as a guy who’s in the fucking suburbs, and I still see a ton of opportunities: there are so many young, hot girls working in shit jobs at grocery stores, restaurants, customer service, etc. who would love nothing more than a strong, alpha male to walk in, take an interest, and game them well.

We’ll see if I’m correct I guess.

But to my mind, 2020 and beyond looks extremely promising. I’ve got one more chance to get a final day game lay before 2019 is over (assuming I don’t pull via night game in the interim)–wish me luck.

There’s never been a better time to be a player.

8 thoughts

  1. So many useful points here. As the writer of the first comment you reference I will say its probably no coincidence I’m from London and my first experience in cold approach was with the Krauser model. I can definitely see the future you outline. I could also see a Black Mirror future where everyone walks around with a headset attached to their face and nobody even talks to each other in public anymore. Either way it behooves the player to make hay as long as the sun is shining. I’ve always struggled with one off approaches. Perhaps because I’m a natural introvert, the pre gaming, psyching myself up for a session part has always been important to me. One off approaching is clearly a more efficient and sustainable method particularly as men age. Something I need to work on.

    To draw your point out further I think there is a distinction between good game and being the perfect alpha. Kicking a chick out after sex might make you a bigger alpha male but unless the chick is extremely damaged it’s horrible game. You also increase your chances of a false rape accusation. Letting a chick fall asleep on your chest after great sex is probably just about the best thing you can do to ensure she keeps coming back no matter what is going on in the rest of her personal life.

    Ricky Raw who blogged at much missed TheRawness had a great series on the subhuman/superhuman paradox. To apply this to TRP, an incel (subhuman) reads Mystery and creates a new false idealized self, (superhuman). He thinks he has ascended to alpha when really he just went sideways or lower to gamma.

    One of things I really appreciate about you and RQ is the total honesty regarding what the average player with his shit together can achieve. PUA’s with courses to sell will naturally exaggerate their results. I do think there is a distinction between body and face though. I’m extremely body focused. If you stay in the 18-24 age range it is not too hard to find girls with bodies most men would rate at least an 8 and often higher. Usually the face comes in somewhere around a 6 or a 7 because it has one obvious defect. Nose too big, Chin too masculine. Skin not clear etc. etc. I think a girl we call a 9, is often just a girl who has an 8 body AND an 8 face. Having both is rare so it compounds her overall SMV.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. I’ve noticed that you do a lot of ‘working girl’ approaches. Do you ever avoid these approaches for any reason? eg. because it’s a place you frequent and it might get awkward later on

    Completely agree about not going out for specific ‘daygame sessions’. I’ve realised that my time is too valuable for that.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I actually don’t do as many working girl approaches as it may seem, so to be honest I’m working on that. I think there is definitely a market there. Key is to do it in a calibrated manner that allows the girl the option to say no without being rude and at the same time, acknowledging she has a job to do. Difficult, but not impossible.
      And I do still like doing daygame sessions–when time allows. I just think that for a lot of guys, doing a few approaches a day makes way more sense than trying to do 10 in a dedicated session.

      Like

  3. Just to add to the discussion on the ‘daygame session’ – As you’ve noted, it only makes sense to do dedicated sessions when you can do a lot of approaches in a short amount of time. The only place I can find this kind of volume (and quality) is at the local shopping mall, but i’ve had much less success with girls in this environment compared to other places, so i rarely bother.

    Places i’ve had success with daytime cold approach: On public transport, the beach, the market, and on university campus.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I haven’t done a ton of mall approaches, but I’ll be making this more of a thing going forward. One thing to consider is simply volume. I think it’s entirely possible to see a lot of noise comparative to single if a guy hasn’t done a ton of approaches.

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  4. Great post. And great blog. A lot of practical bits in your articles to help out working daygamers.

    >But given a different context, going direct immediately is unnecessary and often uncalibrated.
    >To be serious though, the problem with a lot of stuff in TRP and the pick-up community is that experienced guys say what works for them as if it’s fucking gospel and inexperienced guys who don’t know any better try…

    This is such a crucial part of the learning process, but there’s only one way to make sense out of this: try it. Try it and make a fool of yourself and question why you felt that way. I’ve adopted a ton of ideas from Tom and Krauser, but not everything hits. In fact, some of it is really uncalibrated to run on an American girl in NYC, but there’s no way around giving it a go enough times that you calibrate around your own ideas. It’s frustrating as a beginner when you see a certified player running his game, but then it consistently crashes for you. On the bright side, it means you’re learning.

    >Which guy’s going to become the better player? Number two, right, because even if he doesn’t know exactly what to do in every situation, he at least has an idea why he’s doing it, which gives him the chance to figure shit out and make the right move.

    This is an excellent point, and it’s why learning TRP is the necessary flip side of learning Game.

    >In the end, nothing replaces actually getting out in field: talking to girls, getting numbers, going on dates, escalating. You will learn far more if you put in the work than you can ever learn trolling TRP sub on Reddit or reading pick-up advice on Twitter.

    I started taking serious action and approaching this past summer, after 3 years of reading Krauser, Torero, and TRP. The knowledge out there gave me a huge boost to understand the journey and reflect on my experiences, but without question, there is no substitute for experience and failure. Tom’s mantras still get my through my sessions, one of them being “feedback, not failure.”

    >Additionally, women are starting to realize that dating apps and social media aren’t actually all that great for meeting HQ men.

    I really hope you’re right about this, but I don’t see this as a given. The current 18-25 year olds will certainly learn this lesson, but the next generation of 18-25 year olds may not until they experience it for themselves. They may see the current generation getting validation through social media–though we know it’s vapid–and expect the same when they come of age. It’s a problem that may propagate downwards. There’s no question however, that the lessons of Game, TRP, and Frame are everlasting; it’s only a question of adapting them to the times.

    Like

    1. > I really hope you’re right about this, but I don’t see this as a given. The current 18-25 year olds will certainly learn this lesson, but the next generation of 18-25 year olds may not until they experience it for themselves.

      We’ll see what happens I suppose. What I’ve observed on Instagram in my own experience is that even a lot of the younger chicks don’t use it that much, or at least not that consistently. The really thirsty ones do–and some of them are pretty hot–but I also wonder if at some point, people start to realize social media is mostly garbage that makes people angry and isn’t worth the effort. I honestly think that at some point once the novelty wears off, use drops quite a bit. Maybe that’s naive and optimistic, but I have a hard time thinking people will continue to spend tons of time and energy doing something that doesn’t confer any real value for 99% of users.

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