Last night I went to bed kinda mad. Slept well in spite of it, but then woke up with the gears still turning.
To be honest, it was a pretty stupid thing to be mad about. But lately there’s been a chorus of voices (and please understand I’m not accusing them of anything nefarious–read to the end) on Twitter suggesting men give their number out to women as opposed to taking her number, and I finally got in the fray to point out that this is just not a good tactic generally speaking, and especially not for beginners.
Like, this really isn’t controversial. It’s like me saying the sun rises in the east or that Canada is cold in winter.
But before we come to the rest, let’s calmly walk through why giving your number, as opposed to taking it, is dumb.
Scenario 1: Cold Approach, whether day game or night game
This should be obvious, but the girl doesn’t know you, and it’s usually the case that you have a very short window to get her to like you–5-10 minutes tops in day game; maybe a longer time frame in night game, but there you’re battling alcohol consumption, flashing lights, and 17 other douchebags who’ve decided to play PUA for the night because they’ve had a few beers. Understand, this is the crux of pick-up and why it’s difficult: you have to make a good enough impression on the girl–again, on a short time frame–that she wants to come out for a date later on.
But let’s say you do it: your game is tight, she DOES like you, and you get to a point where you or her need to go and it’s time to exchange contact information so you can set up a date. Let’s game this out a bit…
If you give her your number:
- It shows weakness, lack of dominance and confidence, plus it reverses the polarity of the interaction, because you came up to her–you engaged her, teased her, got her laughing, etc.–but now you’re asking her to drive the boat? It’s incongruent at the very least.
- Getting her number is in it’s nature a compliance test, so you miss out on that. Now you could say that by giving her your number, you’re making her comply…but she doesn’t have to. It’s not a command–it’s a request. She’s not giving anything away–and any attempt to explain your way around that is weaseling. Remember, the more a girl submits to you, the more she’ll convince herself she likes you and wants to see you again. This is why qualifying is so important in set.
- You lose control of the interaction. She could forget to text you for any number of reasons, or just decide not to, because she’s not feeling well, she’s passive, she’d already gone on a date that week, etc.
- It’s also entirely possibly you get lost in all the other attention she’s getting from Snap Chat friends, Tinder, and guys hitting her up on IG, etc–another reason she might not reach out.
- If it’s night game, she might forget your name because damn those Kamikazes were strong, and even if she remembers, maybe she’s embarrassed or has some dumb rule against meeting guys in clubs or doesn’t text you for any number of other reasons I’ve outlined above.
- Finally, ask yourself: does a high value man leave things to chance? Does the leader of the tribe allow his people to be subject to the whims of a woman’s emotions?
Now I know that the answer a lot of guys will give here is, “if you’re high value, she won’t forget, make excuses, etc.” Don’t worry, tough guy, we’ll get to why that’s bullshit here eventually.
On the other hand, if you take her number:
- You demonstrate confidence, dominance, and congruence.
- Male/female polarity is preserved.
- You can text her or call her, when YOU decide you want to.
Scenario 2: Social circle
Say you’re at a friend’s party or barbecue, and there are some cute girls there.
As I’ve written, you don’t approach this like a day or night game set–you have more time and social capital, so there’s no need to move as quickly as you would in a classic pick-up.
Anyway, let’s say you end up talking to Sarah, you find out a bit about her, socialize with the others, and generally enjoy the evening. But again, we’re left with the question, because at some point you’d like to take her out: should you take her number or give her yours?
In this scenario, you could give out your number and expect a higher rate of return than you’d get through cold approach…but why put the ball in her court?
She might decide not to reach out for any number of reasons, including some of those I listed above–but here, she also might give herself the excuse that she doesn’t want to risk the embarrassment if you don’t reply, as you’re now part of a social circle where she might see you again. And to be fair, by not taking her number, you’ve implied that you can take it or leave it–that you’re not THAT interested–so she’s not necessarily wrong to doubt your interest.
Scenario 3: SOD game
I don’t think I should even need to explain this–I mean, for those guys who’ve used the apps to meet girls, how often do they ask for your number unprompted or propose a date? IME, almost never–in fact one of the things women often complain about (even though they’re perfectly capable of doing it) is that guys tend to text and text and text and never pull the trigger to get her number or ask her out on a date.
This brings us back to the heart of the matter, which is that women generally don’t want to pursue–they want to be pursued. There’s actually scientific evidence that shows pursuing a woman makes you appear more attractive to her. Have you ever noticed that if you couch a date request with a take it or leave it statement, it pisses girls off? There’s a reason for that: she wants the power to decide yes or no, and she wants your investment. Here’s an example from this Polish girl I hooked up with a little while back (still in play, but I’m not all that keen on her).
Now, in terms of texting–this is a good example of what not to do (Mr. V is probably mortified right now). First, I shouldn’t have made the dinner invite into a question, and I should never have sent the text saying, “come over if you want–if not no worries.” That’s beta AF and she’s right to call me out on it as “insecure.” The thing that saved it was passing the shit test, by agreeing and amplifying–and yes, we did end up hanging out and banging that night.
It sounds cruel (and it kinda is), but women want to know that if they reject you, it hurts a little–and the flip side of the coin is that one of the things they appreciate about being approached and/or asked on a date is the fact you were willing to risk rejection. How she reads it is: this guy likes me enough to risk rejection–he has balls. He’s BOLD.
To come back to whether you take her number or give her yours, the truth is that there’s very little to gain by doing the latter. I mean, if you give her yours, best case scenario (and super rare from what I’ve seen) is that she texts you and you end up going on a date…but in that case she’s obviously a YES girl and it doesn’t matter–if you take her number, she’s still going to reply, right? I honestly can’t think of a plausible scenario where she likes you enough to reach out on her own, but not enough to reply to a text. And that’s where the whole “if you’re a HV guy…” starts to fall apart, because if you are a high value guy, why would she not reply to your text or phone call?
So you didn’t really gain anything by giving her your number, other than risk her not reaching out and burning the lead.
On the other hand, if she’s a MAYBE girl or a passive girl or a busy girl or a traditional girl or a younger girl, there’s a very good chance she’s not going to reach out–but she may well reply if you take her number and text her the next day or later that week.
So giving your number as a opposed to taking it is a losing proposition–if you do this you’re going to burn leads you otherwise could have gotten out.
The myth of the HV man and “make her chase.”
Now again, a lot of guys in the manosphere like to say, “well, if you’re truly a HV man, she’ll chase,” or “giving out your number shows abundance.”
OK, sure, but the question is: how does she know that your a HV guy?
I mean, I guess if you’re Dan Blizerian, go for it. But most guys aren’t. Even most super good looking, successful guys are never going to get to that level of fame and notoriety (not even sure that’s good anymore as being famous in the era of #MeToo seems almost invariably to lead to false rape allegations). Indeed, the notion that if you become “high value” enough girls will just flock to you is complete bullshit. Again, the rule of thumb is that women like to be pursued, not the other way around.
I honestly don’t know how guys can say that unless they’re completely delusional, and here’s why: most women aren’t good judges of character, and what’s even more surprising is that they aren’t good judges of men, generally. If they were, the rate of flaking wouldn’t be nearly as high as it is (oh, and we’ll come back to this too, don’t worry). I mean, frankly, many of the girls I’ve dated and slept with have no idea what I do for a living, how much money I make, what my family is like–some don’t even know I have a kid–and the reason is not that I was trying to hide this information…it’s because they didn’t ask and/or don’t care.
Women don’t care what you do–they care what you can do for them.
In other words, many of the girls I’ve slept with have zero idea whether I’m truly a high value man or not, other than the fact my behavior models that of one. And the reason is that women don’t care what you do–they care what you can do for them.
Can you make her feel sexy, show her a good time, and fuck her brains out? Because that’s what matters, which is why the same woman who will fuck a guy in a van if he has game, finds the lawyer who makes bank and lives in a mansion boring if he doesn’t.
Understand, this is a new age: women–especially young and hot–aren’t selecting men for marriage. They’re selecting men for entertainment and sex. She can make her own money, so even though women certainly like a guy who’s wealthy, it’s not the most important aspect of who he is–and if it is, there’s a whole separate set of problems I don’t have time for in this post.
Generally, women don’t chase. Why would they? Modern women–especially young and hot–don’t lack for attention and options when it comes to dating. Her mode is passive, not aggressive.
Moreover, most women are terrified by rejection. If she reaches out and the guy doesn’t respond, or passes, it’s a massive blow to her ego. It means she’s not pretty enough–and if you don’t think girls care about that, how do you explain all the sexy pics on IG and the need to shake her tits and ass on Tik-Tok? Women deeply crave validation that they’re beautiful. That’s obvious. And by chasing, she risks that very fragile ego, which means that most women, most of the time, aren’t going to chase.
The girls who do–who are aggressive when it comes to pursuing men and also pretty? Those girls are rarely single, and as such, it’s a fool’s errand to play the game with them in mind. And to be quite honest, my guess is that most women who would rather take a man’s number as opposed to giving theirs out, are low value and worried that he might not text or call.
Lies, Deceit, and Bad Advice–the true definition of toxic masculinity.
I had the hardest time figuring out why the whole thing made me so mad–because whatever, right? If guys want to give out their number to girls and burn tons of leads in the process, why should I care?
And in truth, I shouldn’t–but the reason it bothered me so much is that I realized it wasn’t just about that one little aspect of game. No, it’s the larger frame of bullshit and nonsense that goes on, whether on Twitter, the reddit on TRP, or from the self-described “gurus” of game, many of whom are married or in long term relationships, but like to play PUA on social media because they’re lives are boring, I guess?
We’ll return to that, but first I want to define what toxic masculinity really is.
As we might expect, it’s not what feminists or the modern media will tell you: stoicism, confidence, dominance, playfulness, decisiveness, and aggression in the right context–these are all good qualities in a man. These are the things men should strive to embody, and anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know shit, least of all the SJWs and feminists who somehow think they know more about what it means to be a man than actual men.
Toxic masculinity, on the other hand, is when men FAKE these qualities, or lack the frame to back them up. It’s the guy who brags non-stop, who asserts he has a singular license on the truth, who seeks to silence others, who’s view of the world is so small and pathetic he’s always the hero–the focus of every exaggerated story. The lack of nuance, wisdom, introspection, humility–these are the hallmarks of toxic masculinity.
And if we’re honest, the manosphere is rife with it.
Every day on Twitter, I scroll through post after post of guys bragging about how much money they have, how many women they fuck, how women constantly chase after them, how they never experience flakes, etc.
But most of it’s bullshit. For anyone in the game, it’s obvious. The difference between what these guys say and our lived experience could not be more stark. And again, it shouldn’t bother me–but here’s why it does, and it goes back to our evolutionary biology.
Because you see, these men are attempting to lead our tribe–they’re handing out advice that’s not actionable, or if it is, will lead to disaster. And the reason those of us who are honest have such a negative visceral reaction to this constant stream of horseshit, is that if these guys were actually our leaders, we’d all be dead in less than a year.
Think about it: what could possibly be more disastrous to a tribe trying to survive in the pre-dawn of humanity than a leader who’s delusional, but so confident in his delusions that he insists on making all the decisions–decisions you and the rest of the tribe know to be deadly mistakes?
Now, in a tribal setting, I would at least have the opportunity to challenge and kill or deplatform this sort of chief, or convince the tribe to take away his power…but on the internet, all I can do is say he’s wrong, or that he’s lying. And we all know what happens next…no one ever admits they’re wrong on the internet–so instead he doubles down, calls me an asshole, and the resulting argument, if I choose to engage, only serves to distort the real truth.
Of course, we’re not talking about the sort of oblivion our ancestors faced if they were to make a bad choice or follow a dumb leader, but we also shouldn’t pretend there aren’t lives at stake.
Because we’ve seen the examples, right? The blue pill guys who get zeroed out by their ex-wives, the guys who commit suicide because their woman cheats or refuses a marriage proposal, the incels and sexless men who would be happy to simply have the occasional woman in their life, but haven’t the slightest clue how to make that happen.
Those guys are one of the main reasons I write this blog, because I’ve been there–my wife walked away from our marriage when I needed her most, and when I re-entered the dating market, it was awful and I had no idea how to meet women, let alone attractive ones. It’s a hopeless place to be. But hopefully, by documenting my journey, I can be a light in the darkness for guys out there who find themselves in a similar position.
Like, isn’t that the point of evangelizing TRP and game–to help other guys have a better life, especially in regard to women? I know that without guys like RedQuest, Magnum, Nash, Torero, Todd V, the TRP reddit, and some of the RSD guys I came across when I first discovered the red pill, I’d probably still be lost, or worse, in some godawful relationship with a woman far below my value. And I continue to learn from the guys who are actually in the game–like Mr. V’s texting guide, Breeze, Runner, and many others.
And there’s another aspect of the alpha or the leader–of positive masculinity–we should talk about: he cares about other people. He has empathy. He wants people to succeed, and he’s willing to help them. And he’s not so insecure in his own abilities that he has to brag or lie or hate on others to lift himself up.
So for example, when I see guys say chicks never flake on them, I know without a doubt that they’re a phony. Because flaking is so commonplace, even extremely high value guys who have their shit together experience it from time to time. I mean, for goodness sake, I don’t know of a higher quality guy than Magnum–very good looking, killing it financially; the guy’s an absolute baller–and he wrote a post about flaking.
The same is true when I see guys say they’re number closing 50% of the time when they day game (or that getting IG is just as good as a number), claim SDLs with virgins, or say they have a harem of super hot young chicks who don’t care about sharing. Are these things possible on a given day or for a short period of time? Maybe so, but these are the exceptions–not the rule. And to suggest otherwise is extremely misleading to guys out there who are new to game and red pill.
Now to be honest, I don’t understand why you’d bother to spend all day on Twitter bragging about shit that doesn’t happen, especially when most of us are anonymous. Like, I get why chicks post sexy pics on IG–they like the attention and validation, of course, but it’s also actually them. So in that sense, the attention and validation has some measure of value, however small. But if you’re an anon account, like, what’s the point? No one knows who you really are–why lie?
And what’s even worse is when guys throw fake or stupid advice out there, that anyone in the game who actually interacts regularly with women knows is false and clearly wrong, and then gets their back up about it when they get called out.
Now, to go back to the number thing–that was from Nathan Alexander if I remember correctly, who’s a great follow on Twitter and has a lot of good advice for guys generally. He strikes me as the real deal, and from what I can tell, given his situation with his main girl and being a photographer, he may well be in a place where he can give his number out and it works. For him.
But you and I aren’t Nathan Alexander, and even so, I’d bet Nathan would be just as successful (if not more so) if he got the chick’s number instead of giving his out. And please, if there’s some secret advantage in this I’m missing, comment below or tweet at me and I’ll edit it into this post.
Now to address the elephant in the room, maybe you think I’m full of shit. If so, I don’t know why you’re balls deep in a 4,000 word blog I wrote, but whatever–if that’s the conclusion you come to, or you think I can’t help you, then you shouldn’t listen to me or follow me on Twitter.
But in the spirit of helping guys sift through the bullshit, here are the things I look for:
- Is the guy actively involved in pick-up and game, or does he have an LTR or wife? Guys with skin in the game are much more reliable than guys who are keyboard jockeys. Real world experience > theory and musing from your home office. And I promise you, if I get into an LTR or God forbid get married, the nature of this blog will change dramatically.
- Does the guy ever write about the negative aspects of game–flakes, mistakes, problems, a crisis of conscience or purpose, etc? No one ever wins every game all the time, despite what any number of rappers and rockstars want to tell you. Life is hard, and bad things happen. That’s just reality. So if a guy’s out there saying he’s always killing it and nothing bad ever happens, he’s probably a liar, or at the very least, omitting that part of his life to preserve his fragile ego.
- Is the advice overly repetitive, vague, and/or lacking nuance? Guys who are actually gaming girls have details–a specific story to tell. For example, if he’s tweeting about a day game session, does he include an opener, or any sort of detailed description of the interaction? If not, that’s a red flag.
- Is the guy constantly banging on about how women are sluts, how tattoos are slutty, how eating pussy is gay (seems pretty straight to me), etc? Again, these are red flags–women are hard, but they’re also beautiful and fun. If you’re regularly interacting with chicks, your view is going to be more nuanced than “all women bad.”
- Finally, does the guy have a base understanding of pick-up, game, and cold approach? Does he understand the LDM, the basic steps of seduction–does he use terminology like IOIs, negging, qualifying, compliance tests, and so on? If not, red flag. Someone who’s in the game should know this stuff–especially if they’re trying to teach it to others.
And again, that’s really what makes me mad–it’s not the singular piece of bad advice, the dumb tweet, or having the wrong view. Hell, we’re all wrong from time to time. We all have blindspots. No one’s perfect.
But there are guys out there spouting garbage and lies constantly for validation or ego or whatever, and they don’t seem to understand that they’re confusing or misleading guys who genuinely need our help. Shouldn’t we want to help those guys more than we care about meaningless likes and retweets, on an anonymous Twitter account no less?
I mean for example, take the dumb and frequent take that, “if you’re high value, women will come to you, and you don’t need game.” Have these guys not seen Millionaire matchmaker, or the very public beta behavior of guys like Elon Musk and Prince Harry? I mean, there are tons of guys who make way more money and have a far bigger public persona than your friend RPD, but guess what–I’ve slept with more and hotter girls than a ton of those guys, and the odd truth is that a lot of women would rather spend time with a guy who has game, is fun, knows how to escalate, and fucks well than a “high value” guy who makes tons of money.
OK, rant over.
But please, if you take anything from this, be honest and keep in mind that the guys who need us most are looking to those of us with experience for actionable advice that actually works, and the 2-D alpha takes stunt their growth, or cull it altogether.