It’s always fun to meet different guys in Game and get their perspective. Lee Cho was kind enough to answer some of my questions–quite thoroughly! I’ll be reaching out to other guys in the future to get their perspectives as well. Enjoy!
How did you get your start in Game and red pill–was there a specific event, or a series, or realization that led to your trip down the rabbit hole? In other words, what’s your origin story?
This will be written in full in a memoir I have planned, but in short I started Game at 19. I was at university, and everyone was getting laid & making friends except me. So I looked online for tips on how to meet girls, then I read The Game. That began my game journey, although I focused more on daygame since at the time I convinced myself (falsely) that I disliked night game. The Red Pill came approximately three or four years later–before this, I was getting laid but not as much as I wanted, be it with new girls or repeatedly with girls I met through game.
I stumbled across The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi when Tom Torero mentioned it. Rollo’s way of explaining intersexual dynamics solidified in more concrete terms the groundbreaking but more self-development focused ideas I obtained from Real Social Dynamics’ (RSD) Blueprint Decoded in those first few years. This was because while there were many overlaps on becoming a more attractive & masculine guy, The Rational Male placed emphasis on projecting that knowledge from oneself into the real world of women & sex, as opposed to the Blueprint Decoded’s more nuanced ideas of self-actualization & understanding what within you is ready-made to be “sex-worthy”, as Owen Cook aka RSDTyler calls it. Additionally, I obtained Daygame Mastery by Nick Krauser & also read Jon Bodi’s two books – both of which captured & expounded how The Red Pill can be applied in the actual endeavor of seducing women (through daygame). After this, my results became more consistent & approached the type of results I wanted. For a more detailed version of how I actually was pre- & early-game, including all the trials, heartache, sad but pretty cool stories, look out for my memoir in a year or two!
Describe an early experience you had with women, where you either failed in the seduction or had a realization that the nature of women was different than what you’ve been taught–or more generally, what was it like for a young Lee Cho coming up in the world and chasing girls?
More free excerpts from my memoir!
When I was in high school, I was convinced that I was in love with this girl. I was also convinced that by having the most extravagant & bold declarations of love, I would Get The Girl. This was tricky, because in my high school in traditional Asia, boy-girl relationships were explicitly forbidden–period. Nevertheless, on Valentines Day, I ordered flowers from my blabbermouth of a friend, whose mother who was a florist (thus ensuring everyone in school knew what I had planned), wrote a love poem, and deposited the flowers & poem on the girls desk (much to her embarrassment, and in hindsight mine as well). My best friend at the time (who had a pretty significant role to play in shaping my love/sex life, you will see how in the book) was in the same class as her, and told me that she had two other guys who also professed their feelings for her. She was in literal abundance. She chose one of the other guys; I was heartbroken. However, a year later, I somehow ended up being in a toxic relationship with her through a similar pattern of flowers, Valentine’s Day & poems. It was then that I discovered she had literally now dated all three of us guys who had declared our feelings for her a year ago, and I was third on the list. Unfortunately, like the self-loathing chode I was, I ignored this and continued devoting myself to this “relationship”. I was doomed.
To see how exactly how this story ends, and learn the lessons which I carry with me today in my committed daygame career, buy my fucking book when it’s released! (No I don’t need your fucking money, but you need my fucking knowledge. The gains are asymmetrical in your favour my friend).
What is the origin of the Lee Cho pseudonym? Does it relate to Game or pick up somehow?
No, it has no relation to pick up.
I remember an interview Will Smith did – I believe it was on the Graham Norton show. He said that someone advised him to choose the name of his character on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air carefully, because this tv series was going to get big & he would be known by that name forever. Hence, he chose Will.
Now my name obviously isn’t Lee Cho in real life, but Lee is a name which friends have called me in the past, and one I am comfortable with. Cho is just a play on various Asian names. I chose Lee Cho because it sounds like your stereotypical Asian kung-fu master; I wanted to sound as Asian as possible to fight the stereotype/idea that Asian men are weak or non-sexual and that being Asian or foreign is a hindrance to fucking pretty girls of any ethnicity.
When you were first starting out, what did you find to be the hardest part about cold approach, whether day or night game? What’s your advice for beginners? Additionally, as you make that jump from beginner to intermediate, what are some sticking points that guys need to navigate to get better and improve their pick-up?
When I was first starting out, the hardest thing I found was getting girls to actually want to stay to talk to me i.e. Social Hook Point, let alone be attracted to me i.e. Sexual Hook Point.
As for my advice for beginners, I have to start by saying there are different levels of beginners.
- Some guys start from a poor place–low self-esteem, social ineptitude, poor aesthetic.
- Some guys start relatively well–normal without glaring insecurities, maybe a bit shy but not awkward socially, somewhat decent looking.
- Some guys start at a good place–good-looking, decently confident, either able to get girls consistently or for some reason not able to meet girls consistently.
For all these types, I would say learn a (daygame) structure to start with, otherwise you will simply be having conversations that go nowhere & waste your time. Second, I would advise that every guy new to game reads up on Red Pill concepts so he understands what/how girls are and how he is biologically programmed to be when it comes to interacting with girls–societal expectations be damned. Third, focus on improving non-verbal/sub-communication as attraction and arousal are created more powerfully through this as compared to verbal communication.
After this, my advice would be tailored specifically to each type of beginner.
For the 1st type, accept the reality that you aren’t attractive to women. The best part of this is that you now have a direction to move in–upwards. So improve everything. Lift weights, read, get good fashion, develop self-love & self-respect, become happy, become charismatic, learn game-specific skills e.g. escalation, shit-test handling, logistics, vibe/energy projection, calibration etc. If this is your category, you need to transform yourself to become an attractive, sexworthy guy.
(Note from RPD here: Lee is right, and this is one of the biggest values of my coaching--the intake call is all about evaluating where you’re at, and what you can do to increase SMV going forward…and don’t worry, we also get into cold approach as well.)
The other two types will require essentially the same advice as the first type of beginner, but to lesser degrees. A major difference is that these types of guys will already have some attractive/sexworthy qualities. Thus, the job then is to maximize & convey these qualities and/or develop ones which aren’t yet present.
When transitioning from beginner to intermediate, the biggest sticking point tends to ironically be doing a high volume of sets. As a beginner, you need volume to familiarise yourself with the basics. But once you can reliably hold conversations, it’s time to start approaching more selectively – girls whom you genuinely like. This more authentic approach allows you to hyper-focus your mental/emotional/physical energy onto each girl, which simultaneously makes you want to perform the skills well and so pushes you to do so whilst generating raw man-to-woman attraction. The more of these types of interactions one has, the better their skills will become, and the more they will internalise what it is to be a guy that girls are attracted to as a result of the man-to-woman attraction. Oh, and results will become more consistent too–less flakey numbers & better dates.
Note that this does not necessarily mean you become needy, which is an issue many beginner & intermediate gamers have. In fact, quite the opposite. Neediness occurs when you are stuck in your head & focused on avoiding what you don’t want e.g. her rejecting you. But the best way to attract her is by focusing instead on performing the correct skills/behaviours well e.g. eye contact, pace of speech, closing distance, staying on topic, directing the conversation, qualifying etc. By having sharp focus on these skills, you soon become present to the moment because you are now focused solely on taking action i.e. in your body & not in your head. In essence, your level of satisfaction comes from your actions instead of her reactions, which dispels any care for whether or not she likes you. Consider it a professional, success-oriented form of self-amusement if you like. Counter-intuitively, she will like you more. This is what beginners and also intermediates need to internalise to progress beyond their level, amongst other things.
There are 3 relevant posts which I think will benefit guys greatly:
- Expel The Impurities on my blog
- Reveal & Restructure by Nick Krauser
- Fixed vs. Growth Mindset: Does The Concept Apply To Cold Approach? by Midwest Daygame
Speaking of day vs. night game, do you have a preference? Do you do both, or focus specifically on one or the other? Any other thoughts on modality here, particular strategies or hacks that you’ve found, whether in day or night game?
In terms of nightgame, different types of venues require slightly different nuances to the skillset. I like to get even more specific–club game, bar game, gutter game pre-venue, gutter game post-venue.
Yes, I do both daygame & nightgame. However, to ensure a balanced, sustainable life, I prefer and focus more on daygame. However, I think I am better at bar game, and enjoy it more–this is surprising as like all daygamers once upon a time, I barely did any nightgame.
Modality-wise, daygame is obviously more verbal. I also think that it is a very pure form of seduction because there are no distractions–no pounding music, no flashing lights, no alcohol, no throng of sweaty drunk people (not normally, anyway)–just you & her on the street, looking into each other’s eyes & listening to each other’s voices whilst exchanging energy & ideas. This is excellent for acutely refining your sub-communication.
(RPD here: to Lee’s point–day game is the ultimate force multiplier in terms of making you better, not just with women, but as a man as well.)
However, I enjoy bar game the most because it combines the verbal skills of daygame, the dating skills of escalation but at a much faster pace, and also the nightgame skills of group dynamics, winging, moving & isolating her etc. It requires a greater variety of skills, which makes it a fun challenge.
In nightgame, a decent strategy is to go to venues where girls go in twos & threes–this is a strong indicator that at least one of them is out to meet men. Secondly, find venues which have areas where you can be alone with a girl away from onlookers–this is quite important as moving a girl into isolation is what leads to a solid set in nightgame.
For daygame, my advice would be to hold eye contact from the instant you open until at least the hook point (which can happen in 30 seconds or even 1 minute). This seems a small thing, but is significant–it can make or break the interaction. Many guys think they are holding eye contact well, but in reality they break it off multiple times just for a moment then return to holding eye contact again; this makes a significant difference to the quality of the interaction. A good tip would be to see if you remember the color of each girl’s eyes after the interaction–this tends to make you hold eye contact properly. In nightgame, deep, piercing, grounded eye contact is so crucial since verbal game is diminished compared to daygame.
What are your thoughts on dating apps? Have you used them, had success, and if so, why practice day game as opposed to taking the easier route?
I’ve only slept with 2 girls in total from dating apps. I personally dislike them first because as an Asian guy, the Sexual Marketplace (SMP) is not in my favor in the West. In addition to this, my greatest strengths aren’t ones that can be conveyed through the one dimensional lens of pictures and text–it’s in the way I look at her and use my voice, the way I close distance to her, the way I touch her. Dating apps don’t allow me to convey all these.
Furthermore, there’s something fulfilling about meeting a girl through your own endeavour i.e. through cold approach. It builds so many powerful internal aspects of yourself that its benefits far outweigh the relatively linear/simple mode of meeting girls from online dating. But hey, if I was super handsome, I may think differently, since humans are hardwired to conserve energy.
What’s something you believe that is unpopular or uncommon–something you don’t think most people either realize or are willing to say, specific to the game of sex, relationships, and seduction–or even the general state or future of the SMP?
Most people don’t realize that Sexual Market Value (SMV) is NOT just about looks. The other possibility is that many guys fixate on looks as a way to cope because they are afraid to face reality for themselves.
SMV is a composite of looks, wealth/status and learned abilities e.g. charisma, game, social intelligence, specific knowledge.
A popular excuse that I seem to hear a lot of is that if you’re white or tall or jacked, you have it easier. You know what? In my eight and a half years of having done game, I can tell you there is indeed a correlation. The learning curve is shorter because you will require less learning of intersexual dynamics and behavior since there is a higher chance that girls will have initial attraction for you.
However, there are a few points regarding the above – these may live up to the controversy that you hoped I would express in response to this question:
- A lot of tall, white, jacked guys also really suck at girls–even ones who (allegedly) learn game.
- Many who do get results actually have a low to average level of skills/knowledge of dealing with women and rely more on their looks/luck to get laid–except a few whom I know. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing in the scope of getting girls into bed. However, the crunch comes when the girls start acting out–as they inevitably do. It’s rare that they know how to manage these typical female characteristics of drama-creation, jealousy, or even something as simple as flakiness because of the aforementioned lack of need to acquire a deeper understanding of intersexual dynamics and behavior. Moreover, many don’t become socially polished or cool, simply because they’ve not had to add as many bows to their arsenal of human communication/persuasion. Hence, whilst I cringe & am about to be violently ill writing this, I respect the likes of Thomas Crown, Mr White and Der Kaiser not only have a high baseline SMV due to their looks, but actually developed the understanding of game & ability to apply it when needed, and aren’t boring humans.
- Seven Daygame is 5’3, and “looks like a fucking Pikachu” as RoyWalker once said. I’m 5’7, look nerdy as fuck with my glasses – apparently I’m ugly too according to Thomas Clown (he has a fun
blog postfake news article on this somewhere). My friend Scooter Boy is disabled–he cannot walk for longer than 2 minutes & daygames on a mobility scooter, I’ve seen with my own eyes how he pulls some stunners, like his current Russian girlfriend.
To conclude, looks are of course important–but there are other factors which are equally important. Yes, maximize your aesthetic. However, if you think that simply getting jacked, wearing skull necklaces/rings, or having a man-bun will get you consistent results, you are misguided. What will get you consistent results are developing the characteristics of a sexually attractive guy, developing an understanding of intersexual dynamics and behaviors, and learning the in-field skills required. Ultimately, the deciding factor is how she feels when she is with you–how you look only plays a small part in that.
What’s your view of American women vs. British women vs. women on the continent, whether Western EU or FSU? How much do you think women truly differ based on local customs and culture?
I haven’t met too many American girls, to be honest. The ones I’ve met have tended to be really loud–good in bars & clubs I’d imagine, but really off-putting in the middle of a street here in England.
There is a significant difference between British women, Western European women and Easter European women.
The average white British woman tends to be fatter, uglier, more ready to challenge men physically or otherwise, more coarse and manly than her European counterpart. I say with this experience of having lived in multiple British cities for more than a decade.
Western European women tend to be as career-driven as British women, so also have masculine tendencies like finding it difficult to let go & let men take the lead. However, they aren’t as coarse or combative as British women. They are also prettier and slighter on average. Furthermore, they tend to be way more direct (especially Germans, if they like you) or at the very least more openly expressive about sex than the British, who have a very hypocritical shame culture around sex despite the fact that they’re as sexual as everyone else. Like the pressure cooker effect for Muslim girls, I suspect this is why British girls tend to be more depraved in bed.
FSU girls are the most feminine that I have met. They also tend to be the most objectively beautiful. Whilst I have not travelled further east than Hungary or Poland, I’ve met many Ukranians, Bosnians, Belarussians, Russians etc on my daygame travels, and they have been a breath of fresh air. I hope Western feminazi influence is kept at bay until the feminism movement implodes as it surely will, because Eastern Europe seems to be the final bastion on The Continent of meeting women in the form that they were created to be in.
As for how much women differ based on location and culture, I’d say a lot. Asian countries & European countries have very distinct cultures. However, in Asia, a common cultural factor is feminine women who care about being slim, pretty and pleasant. Feminism is less of a problem because it is so alien, although it is creeping more and more into the zeitgeist.
In Europe, all cultures emphasise women being elegant and/or desirable – but their cultures have eroded significantly due to these new waves of societal thinking e.g. feminism & wokeism, which itself has of course created a blanket massive cognitive dissonance in many Western European countries, which as I mentioned before is expressed clearly when you meet their girls.
In Eastern Europe, culture is still strong, which has so far created a bulwark against the ills of wokeness and feminism. That said, I have seen pockets of such societal ailments already through anecdotes, the news & personal experiences, and this threat to true feminine polarity grows bigger as more emigrants from EE return home from the West–much the same as Asia.
(RPD: Concur with all of Lee’s points here–it’s no coincidence that players universally praise EE and Asian women for their femininity. Unfortunately, American and Western EU girls are far more masculine.)
What are your thoughts on race related to game? Specifically, the fact that in many western cultures Asian men are negatively stereotyped and many guys see this as a significant disadvantage…what’s your perspective?
This is an opportunity. Think of it as a call to war–not with society, but with any form of weakness or limiting beliefs which hold you back from achieving what you want in life. If this means that you have to push back against negativity or idiots in the real world, so be it. There is always collateral damage when change occurs, it may as well be the people/things/ideas that hold you back from achieving your best. Harsh, but necessary. Build yourself–mentally, emotionally, physically, aesthetically. Again, it’s an opportunity–so seize it. You will find that you reach a point where you are more resilient and resourceful than many other gamers (and non-gamers), and your results either equal or at times surpass theirs.
Specific to game, what I would say is that “attraction is in the contradiction”. Credit to RSDLuke who said this to my wing Daddy Figure when he did RSD Vegas Immersion. East Asian and Indian-looking guys are considered less cool or more shy – if you are the opposite of this, the attraction it creates is exponential. As Mystery once said, “The pickup artist must be the exception to the rule.”
Finally, China recently banned any “sissy men” from being shown on national television. This, coupled with the decline of men in the west into some ghey-ass woke vegetable, I predict that in our lifetime, Asian men will be respected for being men way more, although possibly hated even more. Which is good, because if you’ve done game for long enough, you know that strong emotions can be used to your (and her) advantage.
What are your plans for the future? How long will you continue writing a player blog and doing cold approach? Will you cash out eventually, or go full Roosh and become a tradcon? What’s the exit strategy for Lee Cho?
At the time of writing this, I plan to eventually get married and have a family – but only in a country where the laws are not heavily biased against men. Frankly, I haven’t thought about it much.
The common Red Pill idea is that men’s SMV peaks at 34-36, so a year before that is when I’ll think about settling down more seriously.
That said, my main goal is to get to 100 lays–I don’t care if it’s purely from daygame or nightgame or whatever, because to me it’s all just meeting & fucking girls. If that happens before I’m in my mid-thirties, and I find a girl I want to settle with, then I’ll do it. But if I find I want to continue fucking new girls beyond my mid-thirties too, then I’ll do that.
The main thing for me is to maintain my own personal happiness, and remain a balanced individual who’s at peace. I don’t glorify “The Broken Man” archetype.
As for the blog, I enjoy writing but sometimes the stories become a bit bland because daygame is essentially the same process from approach to lay. Nevertheless, I will finish writing all my lays from when I first started game.
Lastly, what’s a tradcon?
RPD: basically most of the nonsense you see on Twitter, especially the political takes.
You’ve begun offering infield analysis–what’s your pitch and how can you help guys get better in game through this process?
I’ve stopped promoting this for a few months because my day job was going well, but also taking quite a lot of my time. In a month or two, I can refocus on the infield analysis. I enjoy it, especially because I don’t have to deal directly with weirdos whilst still analyzing infield game.
My pitch, or “Unique Selling Point” is simple–I’m of an ethnicity which is considered non-sexual in the West, I’m short, nerdy, and I came from a starting place of heavy insecurity & social ineptitude. According to Thomas Crown, I’m just a 5 out of 10.
Despite this, I still sleep with pretty girls from cold approach consistently.
So, the odds are stacked against me–at least from a physical point of view. But remember when we spoke about overall SMV being about more than just looks?
My sub-communication, verbal game, physical skills, energy projection & calibration infield are sharp, my depth of knowledge and level of analysis in daygame & related areas are profound, and I’ve overcome many insecurities & inner demons that once held me back. All this I have built through the fact that game was inherently more difficult for me at the start, and so I analysed, practiced & executed more intensely than others.
Now, I would always back myself in direct competition with other guys. In fact, most recently I slept with a girl from a bar whom I stole away from three different guys; they were all above 6’, all white, more jacked than me, and all had their hands on her. Each time I went to get drinks or to the toilet, they swooped in. And each time I returned, stuck out my hand in Hand of God fashion, she flew back to me instantly. I am yet to write this lay report (it was literally the night before I wrote this).
So here’s how I can help guys: I will help you achieve consistency in your results–by explaining nuances in your vocal projection and pace of speech as well as your verbal game. From the content and manner of your verbal game, I will be able to get insight into your ideas about women & sex, and make recommendations if required. To be honest, I will also be able to recommend how to improve certain things which won’t be apparent through a voice recording e.g. proximity & eye contact, simply because inadequate sub-communication tends to occur in a pattern rather than in isolation with one specific aspect.
You can read my blog to see if I put my money where my mouth is, and you can see the page for infield analysis for testimonials. My blog is incomplete as I have quite a lot of lay reports to write from the 7 years before I started the blog and also since I started it.
As always, there are haters and doubters–to them I say, come meet me in person, and I will happily show you the pictures of the girls I’ve been with. I’m in central London, United Kingdom. And no, I’m not stupid enough to send them online and risk doxxing myself
Anything else I should have asked or that you want to add for my readers? What’s something we should be thinking about as players that we are not?
Stop being fixated solely on looks! Too many are. Once you look good, go deeper.
The best way you can get good at either daygame or nightgame is remember that the two important components to both are skill & vibe. Keep practicing the skills while also striving to maintain a relatively peaceful, happy & purposeful life. At some point, creating attraction stops being something you do, and occurs as a result of who you are. From doing things to create attraction i.e. consciously practicing skills/behaviors, you become an attractive guy i.e. internalization of all skills/behaviors. This is the end goal.
Many thanks to Lee Cho for such an amazing interview! You can read his blog here (it’s also linked at the top). If you’re a player who’s got a blog (or some other medium of communication), established some credibility, etc., I’m planning on doing more of these, so hit me up if interested!